Matt Flash wrote:El Hijo del Generico wrote:Matt Flash wrote:Maybe you could blame it on they Joey hate, or maybe still on Hero's overall saturation of elbows, but the crowd was DEAD during the Superkick/Elbow sequence. Flat as shit. I can get over his overuse of elbows in the right spots/moments/matches. No one cared when they were just destroying each other with their signature strikes. And they should have.
Since the crowd turned on Joey after his Claudio match, I find it hard to believe that Hero's elbows were to blame. If the crowd is booing, chanting "this is bullshit" and mad about Joey, and then they stay mad, how can you ascribe any of the crowd's issues to Hero? People were still chanting for him.Matt Flash wrote:Either way, I don't see why Wolves at yelling Hero "You're better than this" means he's trying to insult Hero and get himself over. It's not like he's one of the fucking douchebags yelling out stupid shit like "I HATE SWISS CHEESE" at Claudio, or "TAKE HIM TO BOOTCAMP!" when Hero throws his opponent into his foot in the corner. And he didn't say it in the stupid chanting cadence trying to get other people to join in with him. He had an opinion, he said it directly at Hero and not to anyone else in the crowd, and that was that. That's not insulting. That's criticism. Not constructive criticism, but then again it's not insulting or hateful either. He's got an opinion and he voiced it. Why's that not ok?
It's not ok because it is a false criticism to being with. It's not ok because someone in the audience is breaking up the spirit of the match with the loud, wrong, and mistaken criticism at the wrong moment. He can hate it and say it here, fine. But to be both wrong and to try to get other people in the crowd to look at you while you are being so clever and critical is the problem. It is insulting, because saying "you're better than this" says what you are doing is not good or is low quality. I agree that the other comments were stupid, but when a great wrestler is having a crowd member count and criticize a move during the match it is disrespectful, and when he is the only one saying that, it appears that he is trying to get everyone else's attention.Matt Flash wrote:Another sidenote: Anybody remember the Young Bucks' heel turn back at DDT4 2009? Of course you do. Who's to say this is any different, with Joey getting absolutely shit on? It's like literally the EXACT same situation.
It's a very similar situation, and the causes are alot a like. I think that one major difference is that the Bucks going into that DDT4 had not been doing comedy matches and missing shows. I think both those things made it problematic for Joey to win.
Sorry, that was unclear. I didn't mean Hero's elbows were the reason people were hating on Joey. I meant the oversaturation could have been a reason that the Superkick/Forearm sequence had the crowd so quiet. There was still massive cheering for Hero, but that spot got hardly any reaction.
And who are you to say Wolves yelled something so he could get himself over and try and get the crowd's attention? I was sitting right next to the guy. He even said in his post he'd only yell it when Hero walked by him. Not in the middle of the match, where things are silent, and he'd have to raise his voice, letting everyone hear him. Just when Hero walked by. And it's just his opinion. Not right or wrong, just his own thoughts. Criticism is in the eye of the beholder (not the exact phrase, fuck it). Something someone else loves, you may hate. And vice versa. He paid for the ticket, and has every right to express how he's feeling about something he likes, or doesn't like. That's the whole point of going to a show. To be entertained, allow yourself to get hooked emotionally and get into the matches. Get lost in the matches and storylines. As long as you're not trying to start a chant or get yourself over, there's nothing wrong with voicing your displease with someone or something. And I honestly believe he did it in the most friendly and non insulting way. You can disagree but you can't say the dude was wrong.
Not to mention saying "You're better than this" absolutely does NOT mean he thinks Hero sucks. It doesn't mean he thinks Hero can't wrestle, or that his wrestling is low quality. If I were to say a team had a really good record, even though they lost some games they should've won, and my comment is "come on guys, you're better than this", that doesn't mean I think the team is shit. They're just performing under the standards I've set. Maybe I've got too lofty of goals, and Wolves has too lofty expectations for Hero. Maybe, but it could also mean that Wolves has seen Hero in other matches, and liked that style more than his current one. It's an opinion, bro, nothing more and nothing less.
Thank you Matt for defending my opinion. Hell, i even said it before that my thoughts on Hero are just an opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt. (Sidenote: You were sitting near me? How far away from me were you?) Again, if you've seen recent ROH matches, Hero throws maybe 1 to 2 maybe even 3 at most elbows a match and the rest of his moveset are power/Lucha moves. He's fucking epic in those (granted Claudio does half of the work so there's not much of a chance for him to do that, but even in his singles matches, he knows when the match calls for one wicked elbow and it works) . Why is it that in PWG he feels the need to throw 5+ elbows frequently. Again, I say this as a joke, a joke so we're clear, it's like he knows that I hate his elbows and does em on purpose anyways. (again, joke, not to be taken seriously).
Anyways, I think the reason that everyone crapped on that Hero/Joey trading elbows spot was that they had done 889446453145 Elbows/Superkicks before that and at that point, it became major overkill.