Umm, what shows are you watching? Bosh is getting more than just "occasional" chants and still has heat.
A lot of his matches lately(Elimination 4 Way, Cape Fear tags) have given him plenty of heat, and he got the biggest pop during the Triple Threat at ASW 3.
He's just as over as he was last year, but he's now over because he's showcasing his wrestling more and isn't having to rely on racist promos and fucking with retards to get pops. He hardly looks horrible.
Chris Bosh's loses almost all came from being cheated or screwed over, and Arrogance have only been in three tag matches since BOLA.
The outcome of the Three Way can be disputed, because nobody knows what was really going to happen.
Plus his singles record before BOLA wasn't anything to sing about, and seeing as PWG used BOLA to help elevate Bosh it still seems like a smart move in my mind.
His record might not be impressive post-BOLA, but a lot of great sports teams go through slumps.
His failing to capture the PWG title is another issue. Lets review, shall we?
vs. Steen on 10/1-By way of DQ
vs. Steen vs. AJ on 10/14-Took on two people at once, took a brainbuster on the ring apron, and was pin by a school boy that came out of nowhere
vs. Steen on 11/19-Lost after taking a 2nd Rope Package Piledriver
vs. Joey on 1/21-Beat Joey by countout when Joey felt he was going to lose the belt because despite everything Joey was doing to Bosh to put him away
vs. Joey vs. Steen vs. AJ on 2/4-Lost after taking a chairshot from Steen and pinned by Joey while he was out
vs. Joey vs. Dragon on 4/8-Accidental KO from Dragon, no telling what could of happend
Looking at the past and reading this over, I still don't buy the "Bosh has been made to look like shit" statements.
A lot of the people who face Joey Ryan never win, so I don't buy that statement either seeing as the majority of cheap tactics in PWG stem from Joey's matches.
Watch the Bosh match on DVD from 1/21. The entire time, Joey is doing more to try and put Bosh away until he realizes Bosh will keep coming back. Joey threw Bosh off the top rope to the floor while Bosh tried to go for a superplex, and he powerbombed him on the ring apron to soften up his already injured back some more. It's pretty obvious to tell that Joey is afraid of Bosh a lot more, and the entire underdog concept seems obviously being built up with Bosh's current record.
I already pointed out how it's more of the former rather than the latter in my earlier points, and how he still has heat. Bosh's drop in the card can be explained in many ways, and PWG always does some sort of twist in their angles that are usually played out when they last a long time. Don't just claim PWG is making a big mistake right now, because it's hard to tell what's really happening in the direction of the company.
Don't be to quick to hop on the "Bosh has been de-pushed" bandwagon.
I disagree -- I like that Styles won TPI, and that Daniels again won the Super 8.
You might of liked it, but the core fanbase of the IWA-MS were really upset and when Daniels won the Super 8 again it started to seem less appealing to fans everywhere.
The fanbase PWG is currently marketing their product to isn't the type who buy shows based on who wins a tournament, they want to see good matches.
In the kayfabe sense, having a bigger name win the whole thing might seem like a good idea, but it would be better to establish someone else before blowing loads over guys like Styles or Daniels.
All PWG needs to do is to book good matches that people will pay to see and have their local talent put on outstanding matches and BOLA will be seen on the same level as the TPI's, BOTB's, and Super 8's. Hell, BOLA only happend once and has been seen as something major in the eyes of several people.
Also, look at the track record of CZW's BOTB tournament, and look at all that's gone down in it. No big names(unless you count The Winger) won the tournament and yet it's still one of the most anticipated shows of the year.
TPI was also seen in the same light when it was the Sweet Science 16. The biggest name on the list of winners before AJ won it was Chris Hero, and Hero wasn't an international star when he won it and it was still considered special.
Another thing, the Super 8 and TPI have been around for years, BOLA is still a baby. Having big names win it isn't just going to shoot it to the top. There are several tournaments that have had guys like AJ win the whole thing but still aren't on the level of TPI and Super 8, so you can't justify your reasonings with that argument.
I've been to three of the last four shows. He's not *heatless*, but he's back to where he was in '04 -- a midcarder who people like. There was an electricity when Bosh entered the ring last year that's simply gone now. I wish it weren't true, as I like Bosh, and I'd like to see him as champion... but it'll be months before they can build him back up to get there.
He got the biggest pop beore the match started, but really none of the three guys got much of a pop from that burned-out crowd. He *didn't* get pops for many of his spots, other than the Lioncock punch.
At this point, Bosh is back to a 6 out of 10.
I wouldn't call the roll-up in the Steen/Styles three-way being "screwed over".
They're not all embarrassing losses, but they're all *losses*.
Disagree. I was sitting right where Bosh was recovering from the concussion. Bigg E. Biggz and the other people attending to Bosh were really freaked out that Dragon was throwing him back into the ring in his condition. Clearly the only reason Dragon would've risked doing that was because Bosh was supposed to eat the pin all along.
Don't get me wrong: I think having Bosh win BOLA was absolutely the right move. I just think they needed to follow up on it properly. And shit, I don't even think he necessarily needed to take the belt from Steen; I think AJ should've eaten the roll-up in the three-way instead of Bosh, but I'm down with the "extended chase" storyline. I'd say that Bosh's heat was still salavageable through "Teen Outreach Summit", at which time he'd beaten Scott and scared the hell out of Joey.
2/04/06 - Joey pins Bosh in a four-way via chairshot. No question, it was a dirty loss. Still, Bosh was pinned. Steen wasn't. There's a way to get your big names through storylines without eating a lot of pins.
2/18/06 - Steen pins Bosh in a #1 Contenders Match in Germany. If I'm remembering correctly, Steen won with the Package Piledriver; however he won, it was another big opportunity that Bosh failed to capitalize on.
2/19/06 - Dragon & Davey beat Arrogance to retain the tag belts in England. I'm pretty sure Bosh ate the pin, but I don't know for a fact, and I'll agree with you that Arrogance losses aren't necessarily as damaging to Bosh's cause. Still... he's 0-3, in three important matches, since pushing Joey to the limit.
3/18/06 - Cape Fear beats Arrogance in a #1 Contenders Match when Generico pins Bosh. Bosh's fourth straight finish where he can't get the job done for something big, and either his third or fourth straight pinfall loss.
4/08/06 - Bosh eats the pin in the Dragon/Joey three-way for the PWG Title. Certainly seemed like that was the plan. Five straight big matches, five straight losses, four or five straight pinfall losses. Three or four of them clean.
He's not the struggling hero anymore; he's a midcarder who can't win the big one. And let's not kid ourselves -- he simply *wasn't* that over at "Crazymania". Over, sure, but nothing like he was last summer.
I certainly don't think it was bad for Bosh that he won BOLA; obviously that kind of push can only help a worker. But I *do* think that his performance since has hurt *BOLA*. It's not going to help that tournament get on that map that its inaugural champion is a struggling midcarder. If BOLA's going to be meaningful, its winners need to go on to great things, in PWG and elsewhere. Bosh hasn't.
True... but we can agree, at least, that it's a slump? It's not simply losses due to cheating -- he's having some genuinely bad results.
It's not the most damaging type of pin, but a guy coming off that BOLA run shouldn't have been pinned at all. AJ should've been rolled up, not Bosh.
Right. A helluva finish, to be sure, but still a conclusive loss. Steen very convincingly was the better man that night.
...and they start to fall apart here. I was at this point, as I believe you were. Bosh was clearly the afterthought in the match. Steen got saved from a pin. AJ did a lot and went down to the wire with Joey. Bosh was fairly unceremoniously chairshotted and pin in the middle of everything. Completely deflated the crowd, and I think this is where Bosh started to lose his top-carder heat for good.
As I wrote earlier, I disagree with this. Dragon's called audibles in his career (mainly Rev Pro) where he eats a pin he wasn't supposed to eat.
Why would he throw a really badly hurt man into the ring to eat an unscheduled pin? Bosh was supposed to job here. I don't doubt that he would've been made to look better in the loss, but he was supposed to job, AGAIN.
Not like shit; that's overstating it. But Bosh has been made to look like a midcarder.
There's a difference between Sabin losing once to Joey's shenanigans and Bosh losing to them *four* times. Continuing to succumb to Joey's cheating makes Bosh look weaker than the other challengers. You buy that Sabin or Steen could take the belt off of Joey if they just got one more chance; you know Bosh wouldn't, because he's continually gotten that extra chance and continually failed.
That match was great for Bosh -- that's been the one well-told chapter lately. But if you look at things now, Joey's clearly not afraid of Bosh. He doesn't mention him in interviews anymore, and he's pinned him twice since then.
You're admitting that Bosh has dropped in the card.
I certainly don't think that TPI was hurt by Styles' win in '04, as that's easily its most high-profile year ever. You may be right about the Super 8, though. Certainly it wouldn't be good to have big names win every tourney all the time.
Absolutely. But still, I think there's a balance between good matches and making a tourney feel special. Having big names advance, so their losses mean more, or their wins make the tourneys mean more, is a good thing to do in moderation.
(I'd argue that Norm Conners' Super Indy tournaments haven't really gotten on the map because he's too aggressive about putting his regulars over the big names. Makes them just seem like IWC shows, not star-studded showdowns.)
Agreed. Again, I thought Bosh was the right choice last year. But his struggles since have slightly tarnished BOLA's reputation. It's not the tourney that made Chris Bosh; it's the tourney that Chris Bosh did oddly well in, before going back to struggling in singles matches.
Yeah, I agree with this. I think there's no doubt that BOLA is gonna be huge no matter what. But I think some thoughtful use of stars -- maybe a win by a Danielson or a Cabana every three or four years -- would only make it even bigger.
I think it's *not* as anticipated as the TPI or the Super 8 by the InterNerds, partially for that very reason. (Partially because a lot of the CZW workers simply don't put on great matches.)
I loved the early Sweet Science 16's. But there's been much more of a Web buzz over TPI since '04, and the star-studded nature of that one is a big reason why
Maybe AJ wasn't allowed to take the pin because of TNA? Who knows? It didn't do much damage, hell it probably did very little damage. Nothing bad here.
In 2004 Bosh was getting bad heat, in that nobody cared about him and nobody wanted to see him anymore. There is no way you can compare him to two years ago. He still gets good pops, because he's getting pops for his skills and not his promos and it shows by the crowd reactions.
The entire crowd was almost out of it anyways, so that can't be blamed on Bosh not being over at all.
So if Bosh was at the level he was in 6/10, you'd think he'd be getting the "God this chubby pale guy is annoying get him out of the ring" heat right now.
Lets put it this way. Lets say some dude enters a bunch of street fights. He looks good in them, and people love him. This guy goes undefeated in a tournament and people love him. His opponents all know this, so they have to resort to drastic measures to beat him. So they just come to fights and beat the dude by using chains, 2x4's, and having their friends jump him during the fights. Does that mean he's weak? No, it just means his opponents have to resort to extremes to win and they know how much of a badass he is. This is almost the same thing with Bosh. Almost all his opponents are going to extremes. None of the casual fans at PWG and non-diehard smarks are thinking any less of him because of his loses, and it shows. Losses are losses, yes, but it all depends on the circumstances in which they take place.
There are many ways this could of gone. Dragon could of thrown him into the ring to try and get the easy win but end up getting school boyed by Joey and get the lose. Maybe there was some mis-communication in the ring and nobody knew what was supposed to go down. You can come up with whatever theory you have, but chances are that it's way off.
Bosh can still look like a threat. It hasn't been a year since BOLA, so there is still plenty of time for things to play out. There are several multi-shot weekends coming up, so things can change big time for Bosh in the coming months, hence all my "still to early to tell" arguments. And who knows why AJ couldn't of taken a pin. Maybe TNA didn't want him to take it. Again, you just can't tell.
Just because Bosh got pinned doesn't mean Steen didn't get the rub in this. It just means that it takes two chair shots for Joey to pin Bosh in that match.
The shows aren't even out yet, so you and I can't be talking on this issue here as we don't know all the circumstances of his loses.
Fourth straight pinfall, yes, but to the SoCal crowd it was his first clean pin. While it was technicly his fourth straight time not being able to get things done, it also means that it took so much to beat him with the Turnbuckle Brainbuster.
Again, no telling what was meant to happen. You really can't count this at all.
If he's a midcarder, why are people going through so much just to beat him? He's not being treated like a midcarder by his opponents, he's being treated like a thread in my mind.
Plus the main event at ASW 3 happend four hours after the opening bell, of course he wasn't going to get a huge pop. Almost everyone was tired. Even if Jesus Christ came out with Hulk Hogan wrapped up in barbwire being dragged across the floor and then John Lennon making a run in only to get struck with lightning by Jesus it wouldn't get a giant pop.
Swerve gimmick bro, always watch for it. Everyone was obviously in a panic and were trying to scramble things up. Maybe Dragon felt Bosh was going to get back up and recover and was going to pin him and win the belt? Maybe Joey was supposed to pin Dragon, but in his mind he didn't want to hurt one of the champions and went with Bosh? Maybe they're going to use Bosh's unlucky streak and use that in the storylines coming up?
Not like shit; that's overstating it. But Bosh has been made to look like a midcarder.
You're implying it. The majority of your posts keep making things out to seem like Bosh is looking horrible and looking bad. You've also said that he's looked sloppy and said he's always getting injured. Your posts make it seem like it, even if you don't really mean the words you say.
The DVDs aren't even out yet, so we don't know if Joey has cut any promos about him since then. Don't jump to conclusions so quickly. And he's also pinned him twice by CHEATING, how many times do I have to repeat that point?
I certainly don't think that TPI was hurt by Styles' win in '04, as that's easily its most high-profile year ever. You may be right about the Super 8, though. Certainly it wouldn't be good to have big names win every tourney all the time.
My point wasn't that it ruined TPI, just left a bitter taste in people's mouths and ruined the meaning of what TPI has meant for years.
Well, advancing big names is no big deal, just them winning the whole tournaments. Things would mean more if local talent started to get upsets, and it would establish them and in the future would make future wrestlers in PWG look better once AJ and Daniels aren't available.
It's not that he's aggressive putting over regulars, it's just that his tournaments aren't that good.
Agreed. Again, I thought Bosh was the right choice last year. But his struggles since have slightly tarnished BOLA's reputation. It's not the tourney that made Chris Bosh; it's the tourney that Chris Bosh did oddly well in, before going back to struggling in singles matches.
Again, nobody thinks BOLA's reputation has been ruined by the current booking. Chances are, nobody gives a shit about it. It's still been less than a year since it happend and we can't just be talking about the effects of Bosh's current run is having on it.
Yeah, I agree with this. I think there's no doubt that BOLA is gonna be huge no matter what. But I think some thoughtful use of stars -- maybe a win by a Danielson or a Cabana every three or four years -- would only make it even bigger.
Cabana and Styles(who's a bigger name than Danielson) couldn't help IWC's tournament, so there's nothing in your argument that can help you support your statement. Plus Cabana and Danielson aren't really PWG regulars, so that wouldn't do much to help them if they got booked like shit elsewhere when you think about it.
I think it's *not* as anticipated as the TPI or the Super 8 by the InterNerds, partially for that very reason. (Partially because a lot of the CZW workers simply don't put on great matches.)
I think it is. People buzzed about it when Dragon and B-Boy had their match and the Jody/Storm match. BOTB is still one of the most looked forward too tournaments in the US, moreso than the CHIKARA TWGP, ROH's Trio's, IWC's Super Indy, and hell at this point ECWA's Super 8.
[/quote]I loved the early Sweet Science 16's. But there's been much more of a Web buzz over TPI since '04, and the star-studded nature of that one is a big reason why
But it also got the most web heat over the results of it. Plus IWA-MS was at their peak period at the time. People then looked at past TPI's and loved them because of the nature in which they've been booked.
Did people not like Bosh in '04? I certainly did; I seem to remember people liking him pretty well at SCU and DVDVR. He didn't get pops because he was a heel, but he was an effective midcarder, which is more or less what he is now.
I'm saying that it's no longer one of the biggest reactions on PWG shows, or even close to it, really.
I feel like A.J. and Steen always get pretty killer reactions in main events, no matter how long or draining the shows are.
Again, that's simply not the reaction I remember Bosh getting in '04. I remember Danny, Scrub, True Fan and others praising his work, and I personally liked him too. Bosh was a good part of the package in '04, and is a good part of the package in '06. He's no more than that, though, at this point.
They're both over, and both important parts of the product...
Bosh's BOLA push, at the time, felt like it was designed to do more than to get him to the "takes a lot to beat him" level. I mean, shit, he beat Quick and Generico themselves, that weekend, in addition to two big names. He's got sort of a tough veteran position on cards now, and there's value in that, but ideally the winner of a big high-profile tournament would be doing better than that.
He came back with two losses. I don't think that the So-Cal fans were less into him because of it, but they could've gotten *more* into him again if they knew he'd been succeeding.
There's an asterisk by it, sure, but let's remember the booking of the weekend: Joey was facing Necro the next night, and Bosh was scheduled to face the Briscoes with Scott. Maybe Bosh wasn't supposed to eat the pin (though I'm pretty sure he was), but there's no question that it was going to be another unsuccessful title challenge for him.
Maybe we can agree on the phrase "upper midcarder"? I agree that he's presented more strongly than guys like Excalibur and Ronin and even T.J., but he simply loses more than the Dragon/Davey/A.J./Steen top tier. I'd say he's on par with Quick, Generico and maybe Sabin. It takes a lot to beat him, but pushed guys can generally manage it.
If fans root for a guy to win a belt, and he continually fails, they're going to get less excited about him.
I said, in the "Ten Best Workers" thread, that Bosh has been a little sloppy lately and seems to get injured more often than some people. That wasn't me saying he sucks -- it was me explaining why he didn't quite make my top ten.
But I've never said that Bosh looks like shit in the ring.
Not talking about DVD promos -- I'm talking about live promos. Joey mentioned Bosh as a threat pretty often a couple months ago; he no longer does.
And losing by cheating is much more damaging to a babyface than winning. How many times do I have to repeat THAT point?
If, say, Danielson won it next year, and then a young guy like Koslov or Ronin won it the year after, that'd mean big things for that local guy. Because he won something that Bryan Danielson has won.
That's a lot of the draw of the Super 8, after all -- that the winner joins the ranks of people like Bryan Danielson, Paul London and Christopher Daniels.
The only thing that I'd use to support my statement is my sense that the TPIs have been bigger deals and sold more DVDs since they started really pushing bigger names.
I'll admit, I have no rock-solid data to prove that, but I get the sense, at DVDVR and elsewhere, that people started talking about those tourneys more when they became showdowns of big indy names, more than constant elevations of IWA-MS regulars.
Seems to me that the TWGP is more looked forward to, but we're splitting hairs here. I never see much BOTB hype at the places I go (DVDVR, HWL, Smarkschoice), but I believe you that they're big deals on other boards.
Is Bosh able to have consistently great matches as a singles wrestler the same way the other people in the top tier are capable of? I don't believe so.
Bomb, didn't you call me out in that "low priority" thread, only to disappear when it was clear that you had nothing to contribute except pissiness?
KickToKill wrote:Those were the longest posts I've ever read
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