Burning the Bridge ???

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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:35 am

NHfan wrote:First of all, I actually like Davis and Fish, although I agree on the later becoming somewhat stale over the last year and that's why I think he's kind of fizzled out of the picture. The Scene is garbage, I really do wish they'd kill that whole gimmick. But you can't expect to like everybody used on a show. I for one despise Brian Cage. I know that's probably blasphemy to say to the PWG crowd but I think he's a steroid monster douche, and that's my opinion. I could name others but I won't, the point is I don't hate PWG because they push him and I don't like it. I look past it.

Here's the difference between those guys: Brian Cage is actually over. That's why he's being pushed. The EVOLVE guys you named are the equivalent of PWG still using Brandon Gatson or some other former roster guy who failed to stay over. The difference being, PWG knows when someone's time is up or it's their time to shine.

NHfan wrote:I think you're being a little harsh on Samuray. For one, he's really good in the ring. For two, he's as much as a "luchador" as Rey Mysterio or Eddie Guerrero, both were not actually from Mexico but were from Mexican dissent (if Samuray is not I apologize I do not know too much about him). They wrestled much of their young careers in Mexico just as Samuray is doing now. He's used that experience and learned the lucha style.

He's as much a luchador as Jigsaw is.

NHfan wrote:If an American goes to Japan and graduates from New Japan or Noah dojo, are they not considered to use a puro style?

Not really, no. Karl Anderson is not considered puro. Were Bison Smith or Albert puro guys? They were just plodding big dudes who could hang in there. Kenny Omega? Prince Devitt? Not even guys like Strong/Davey/Edwards who've made numerous trips to Japan, they were hard-hitting to begin with. Granted, I don't know if any are "graduates", but these guys (except for the last 3) spent a majority of their careers in Japan.

NHfan wrote:If there was a big problem with calling him as such, would Mexico continue to welcome him back on their shows?

This isn't about respecting lucha libre or whatever. Who cares about that? My point was, the promoter backed the guy up as being a legit luchador, and it's a dude in a mask nobody's heard of. Have your backstory and all, anything you need to hype the guy up, but that was a shitty ploy, if anything, to make some money.

NHfan wrote:I also don't understand how you can have a problem with a series of matches. Some fans like it, and it appeals to those fans.

Yeah, ok. Thanks for the counter argument. "Some like it, some don't." Yeah, we think differently, that's insane.

NHfan wrote:If you dont like it, it's fine but I wouldnt call it "lazy booking" when there were enough fans who wanted to see a rematch and then a "rubber" match and enjoyed each of those matches.

Listen, dude. Any well-booked match can have an immediate rematch. In any company. Whether it's the Wrestlemania main event or your local indy. There's no excuse for the 3 matches in 2 months, no matter how you put it. It's flat-out lazy. Each consecutive match lowers the value of the previous, especially with this one, where the 3rd was obviously not the best match. There's no point in the timing. 2 months down the line? Maybe, it worked for the first 2 Sami/Finlay matches, they timed them well. But hey, you're one of the "enough" fans who'd rather not question things. Well, once people make their reputation and have enough fans to approve everything without questioning things, it gives them leeway to slack off.

NHfan wrote:Also you call the style battle the "worst idea of all time." I'm hoping there is a bit of hyperbole in this, pretttty sure there have been worse ideas. I thought the idea was ok, the execution however has not been the way I would've liked to see it go, but then again I'm not a booker, and I don't know the backstory of why things end up playing out the way they do. I actually really enjoyed the first 9 Evolve shows. I thought it was something different and I liked the whole sportsmanship and basing importance on records aspect (and yeah I kind of looked at it as DGUSA's "minor leagues"). I will agree that I don't care for the crossover being done now, I hate the idea of an EVOLVE title that they're pitching now, but I understand why they are doing those things, even if I personally disagree with them. They've had a few decent shows that I've seen since then but not as many as when they first started.

Alright, so you liked the first handful of shows and you agree on the tournament (and most everything else) sucking. Thanks.

NHfan wrote:You say your counter to cole and TJ's pushes compare to bringing in Dreamer and Sabu. I don't think that compares at all. Dreamer was originally brought in to job for Moxley in one match and yes, to put some star power in the lineup (something virtually all indie companies including PWG have done). I didnt agree with bringing him back a few more times and I definetly think they used Sabu longer than they should have (although I dont entirely blame them as he did draw an audience like it or not). My counter to you would be Chucky T, Ricochet, Swann, Lee , Mox, Sami....guys that got pushes and have had very successful careers partially to thank for it.

Just because Gabe can't afford to book Dreamer consistently doesn't mean he was brought in as a one-time thing? So it is comparable, the use of young and new guys. Young guys who are already established (Ricochet, TJP, Chuck) and old friends of Gabe from ECW years. Isn't networking awesome?!

You're admitting he uses old guys to bring in nostalgic fans, and then you say PWG's also done it? Yeah, PWG did it on shows where the old guys were available (KRMs), and even though it was overkill, it was fun and a one-time thing. You basically admit yourself that Dreamer & Sabu overstayed their welcome. You're doing the talking for me. You're just being nicer about it, but you're still critical because you realize it's a cheap tactic.

And I've said numerous times that Gabe is indeed pushing new guys. You don't have to separate my quotes, but at least read them if you're gonna reply.

NHfan wrote:I'd also like to point out that SSB was on some EVOLVE shows before making their way over to PWG.

Ok. Now do the chronology for me. SSB had a maybe 3 matches there in 2010. And then suddenly by a divine miracle they're brought back in late 2011 after having 2 very talked-about matches in PWG. After over a year of nobody talking about them, no major appearances anywhere besides Canada. They fly themselves in for PWG, steal the show, and suddenly they're back on Gabe's radar. Just a massive coincidence, it must be!

NHfan wrote:Tozawa was most certainly put in big matches fairly quickly in DGUSA. His 2nd match was a show-stealer with Mochizuki, two shows later he was in the semi-main event tag match at Bushido, and two more shows later he pinned Callihan, Aries, and then Hulk at United weekend.

And all this happened after late 2010, right? Exactly.

NHfan wrote:He should be champ, I was hoping he'd beat Gargano and am kind of upset he didnt because once again I agree that Gargano has held the belt for too long, but Tozawa was most certainly pushed at the beginning. But I don't see a problem anyways with having to work your way up the card. Introduce SSB by having them beat out some other teams first to show how great they are and then give them the high profile spots. I think it's fair. I know we've all been spoiled with the series of instant dream matches PWG books and that's what makes them the most fun to watch, but you can't expect to get that everywhere.

Way to advertise for them. "Not every fed can have dream matches like PWG. Sometimes you gotta sit through some shit, work your way up. Come watch SSB wrestle jobbers in DGUSA so 6 months down the line they can wrestle a 'name' guy. It's only fair, right?"

You've been a complete yes man so far. Nodding and approving every lame decision that's been made. Even when you disagree, it's like, "Well, you know, it happens." Doesn't have to, it's mostly dogshit. You even seem to understand a lot of this is shady, yet you defend the guy because he handed you a recepit once. Yeah, to keep you coming back. It's called money.

NHfan wrote:Lastly, Generico hasnt simply been jobbing in DGUSA/EVOLVE. He's beat Samuray (twice), one the first multiman match he was in, beat Sami, and now is probably going to have some great tag matches with Samuray. But he's not going to beat everyone because that's not going to make matches very interesting.

Yeah, because if that unknown guy beat him 3 times in a row, there'd be a fucking uproar. It's the least they can do, throw him some wins. People don't invest in these matches based on who will win. Especially after seeing it twice in a row. "Wow, they each have one point! This is interesting!"

Any future match that Samuray has now, people will simply look back at the Generico series and go, "Wow, the bookers really exposed this guy's weaknesses by doing the same thing 3 times in repetition. Only now we're finally noticing them."

NHfan wrote:Do you like any company's besides PWG? So far you've expressed on the boards what seems to be hatred for ROH, DGUSA/EVOLVE, and CHIKARA. If I'm right about this you must be a fan that is very difficult to please.

Well, maybe so, but if the opposite of being critical is to blindly purchase every Chikara show because it's been deemed "fun" or accept the fact that a guy's booking stinks, I'll stick to being a cunt.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby NHfan » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:27 pm

Wow dude, such hostility lol. Do you have conversations with everyone like this? When they disagree you jump down their throat, and when they agree with some things you say you get on them for not disagreeing with you, with a "thanks for proving my point asshole" kind of attitude? Yes I brought up my disagreements with you in the hopes of having a friendly debate but I suppose I set the bar to high. I'm not going to continue going point by point, because it's not really worth it. You seem like one of those people who believes the world is black and white and you either have to think one way, or the complete opposite with no in between because it is too complex. I don't blindly shake my head at everything a promoter does in any company. But if I like the majority of matches consistently enough on shows, that's all it takes for me personally to enjoy a company. It doesn't mean I agree with everything they do, but I will let it slide if the good outweighs the bad. Booking is probably extremely tough, and I think you are a little too critical and unforgiving. I pesonally have no idea what goes into booking, and if you do and it happens to be extremely easy then I'll shut up right now. The costs, people being booked elsewhere, guys not wanting to work certain other guys, contract agreements, doesn't sound too easy to me. Not to mention that some guys gotta start somewhere, you can't expect everybody to be extremley good right away. You can't expect things to be perfect because nothing is perfect. PWG comes the closest which is why it's the best right now, but all of those guys started somewhere. I've seen you shit on IWA and CZW but without those companies where would Drake, Chuck, Sami, Ricochet, Cole, etc. be? PWG for the most part takes guys that are already established and let's them tear it up which makes them the best, but this can't happen everywhere. If it did there would be no room for growth in the indy scene and then there would be no "dream matches". It's so easy to sit back on your couch and go "I'm not being entertained enough, every match on this show isn't mind-blowningly awesome therefore this entire show sucks!" Alright, I've wasted more time than I wanted to on this.
Oh and BTW, I don't like DGUSA just because Gabe was nice to me, I've always liked the product. I was just giving an example of how he's always appeared to me to be a nice guy. I've talked to him numerous of times and he's never given me a "fuckoff" attitude. In that example I gave he already had my money, and even if he wanted to make sure I'd come back next time he didn't need to personally handle the situation himself and make sure I got into the seat I paid for when the tickettakers were giving me crap.
Anyways, you can keep all of your hatred and disappointment, I'm gonna continue to have fun watching a multitude of different wrestling companies.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Itchypanda » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:31 pm

Meltman wrote: ...I'll stick to being a cunt.


His best self-quote, yet.
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